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Hms/m K17: North Sea
Submarine (First World War)
Site Name Hms/m K17: North Sea
Classification Submarine (First World War)
Alternative Name(s) Outer Forth Estuary; Firth Of Forth; `battle Of May Island'; Isle Of May; Hmsm K17; Hms K17
Canmore ID 120576
Site Number NO80NE 8002
NGR NO 88128 07244
NGR Description NO 8811 0735 and NO 8783 0700
Datum WGS84 - Lat/Long
Permalink http://canmore.org.uk/site/120576
- Council Maritime
- Parish Maritime - Offshore
- Former Region Not Applicable
- Former District Not Applicable
- Former County Not Applicable
NO80NE 8002 8811 0735 and 8783 0700
N56 15.52 W2 11.51 (main portion) and N56 15.33 W2 11.78 (detached bow portion)
NLO: Isle of May [name: NT 65 99].
Formerly entered at cited location NO 8793 0704 [N56 15.3 W2 11.6].
For (associated and adjacent) weck of HMS/M K4, see NO80NE 8001.
For diagrammatic representation of the 'Battle of May Island' (Operation E. C. 1), see Everitt 1999, 80, 81-4.
For general summaries of the history, characteristics and limitations of this class of submarine, see Compton-Hall 1985, 18-30 and Compton-Hall 1991, 288-99.
Located in 1962 by HMS SCOTT, least depth 46m and standing some 6m proud of the seabed at 51m. K17 was sunk in collision with HMS FEARLESS.
Hydrographic Office 1995.
(Classified as submarine: date of loss cited as 31 January 1918). HMS [HMS/M] K17: this vessel was in collision with HMS Fearless, and [was] sunk.
Registration: London. 1850 tons displacement. Length: 103m. Beam: 8m.
(Location of loss cited as N56 15.35 W2 11.68).
I G Whittaker 1998.
Length: 338 ft (103m)
Beam: 26ft 8ins (8.13m)
Displacement: 1883/2565 tons
Propulsion: geared steam turbines; 2 screws; 10500/1400hp; 24-25/9 kts; battery-driven electric motors with (also) 1 x 800 hp diesel for boost when diving or surfacing
Armament: 8 x 18 ins (457mm) torpedo tubes (4 bow; 4 stern); 1 or 2 x 4ins (102mm) and 1 x 3in (76mm) AA guns
Complement: 50/60
The impressive but spectacularly misconceived K class of submarines were essentially an early attempt to build a vessel which was both submersible and also fast on the surface, qualities which were not combined until the advent of nuclear power, if then. Mechanically complex, they were inherently difficult to trim while the need to raise and retract the funnels made surfacing and diving slow in the extreme. The numerous large openings in the hull were always a potential danger. Designated 'fleet submarines' they were intended to cooperate closely with surface warships moving at high speed but their low freeboard and complex silhouette made them difficult to distinguish, particularly at night and in bad weather. Untoward incidents (typically involving uncontrolled sinking) were commonplace and five of the seventeen built either foundered or were sunk in collision, one being raised and returned to service. None remained in service for longer than a decade.
K17 was built under the Emergency War Programme by Vickers at Barrow-in-Furness and completed in 1918. Both K4 (NO80NE 8001) and K17 were sunk in the 'Battle of May Island', a series of interrelated collisions involving both submarines and surface craft on the night of 31 January 1918.
This submarine is apparently the further SW of the close-set pair of wrecks that are charted (Wk) at a depth of 46m in a general depth of 51m about 12.5nm (23.km) ENE of the Isle of May. The surrounding seabed is apparently level and a mixture of sand, gravel and shell.
Information from RCAHMS (RJCM), 17 December 2002.
H M Le Fleming 1961; [Jane] 2001.
HO chart no. 175 (1977, revised 1996).
Plans (but not photographs) of this vessel are held in the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich.
Information from Ms G Fabri (NMM), 7 November 2003.
[Undesignated Site Assessment Report compiled from documentary, archive and anecdotal sources only, to consider whether the remains satisfy the criteria for Designation under the Protection of Wrecks Act (1973): no diving or remote sensing was carried out in its preparation. Wessex Archaeology project code 53111 refers]. The identities of the two wrecks charted by UKHO remain unverified, but the available evidence is consistent with UKHO 2975 representing both K4 and K17, UKHO 2973 being the detached bow portion of K17. The survival of a substantial quantity of human remains is considered likely within K4, but improbable in K17.
The location of UKHO 2973 was cited by them as N56 15.345 W2 11.778 [NO 8783 0703] (WGS-84) and cited as having a least depth of 46m in a general depth of 52m, on information from a survey by HMS Scott in 1962. These remains were then identified as probably those of HMS/M K4.
UKHO also cite locational information from Mr PPG Wadsworth (dated 28 June 1994, acquired by detailed echo sounder survey linked to GPS, and apparently in co-ordinate system WGS-84):
Complete submarine (equated K4): N56 15.46 W2 11.51 [NO 8811 0724]
Incomplete submarine (equated K17): N56 15.52 W2 11.51 [NO 8811 0735]
Bow portion (equated K17): N56 15.33 W2 11.78 [NO 8783 0700]
In addition, locations (in co-ordinate system OSGB-36) were provided by Mr M Sinclair at N56 15.453 W2 11.507 and N56 15.510 W2 11.468; both have successfully been used for diving and are in accordance with those cited at the time of loss by HMS Fearless, HMS Ursula and airship N53. The locations cited by RCAHMS are considered incorrect.
Mr Wadsworth (in a report dated 24 June 1994) noted UKHO wreck 2973 as being intact and upright, having a least depth of 48m in a general depth of 56m. The propellers were buried, but no scour was evident. A deep rent crossed the hull aft of the rear gun mounting, while the deckhouse/conning tower was forced over to starboard but still attached to the hull. The forward periscope was damaged, and a fishing net covered the [a] gun and the conning tower.
Diving in 2002-3, Mr M Sinclair and Ms C Peddie (BSAC Cupar) placed two submarines close together, one being to the SW of the other. Both note the wreck as being within about 100m of the complete wreck (in an unstated direction); neither noted the orientation. Mr Sinclair described the incomplete wreck (equated with K17) as lying on a seabed of mud and sand. The bow was missing, while the conning tower lay on the seabed to starboard, and was free of marine growth. A gun lay on the seabed aft of this. No remains of either funnel were evident, but the funnel and hatches lay on the starboard side propped up against the side of the hull. The bow portion was not located by echo sounder or seabed search.
Ms Peddie noted the hull as being upright and largely unburied, the seabed (which was 'hard and gravelly') being at the point where the hull section turns in towards the keel. The bow of this wreck was missing; no torpedoes were noted and there was little debris around the area of the break. The conning tower (of 'brass') lay on the seabed close to the starboard side; a rectangular hole (with no evidence of a hatch) was apparent beneath the conning tower. The control room (beneath) was filled with silt, but a possible binnacle was seen. There was a small gun on the seabed nearby. Two propellers were noted at the stern, which resembled that of K-class boat.
In summary, the remains of this vessel comprise a largely intact hull within a debris field, which is probably of limited extent. The hull measures about 103.33m in length by 6.55m in beam, and is probably silt-filled, with consequent potential for the survival of the artifactual contents (including ordnance).
Wessex Archaeology suggest the equation of UKHO record 2975 with the remains of an intact submarine (by inference, K4) and the greater part of an incomplete submarine (by inference, K17); the detached bow of the latter lies to the SW. They also suggest that UKHO record 2973 be equated with the detached portion of K17. Although the size of this portion is not specifically recorded, a presumed break in the area of the 'officer's mess' [wardroom] would suggest a length of about 24m.
The 'fleet submarine' K17 was built by Vickers at Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, and was commissioned in March 1917. She was lost (as was K4) on the 31 January 1918 during EC1, a night fleet exercise in the Firth of Forth which degenerated into a series of collisions and is remembered as the 'Battle of May Island'. K17 sank following a collision with HMS Fearless, the light cruiser leading the 12th (K) Flotilla. She was struck on the starboard side, a large hole being torn out of her side at the forward end of the wardroom; a delay of eight minutes is recorded being collision and sinking. It appears that all the crew left the sinking vessel, but only nine were rescued, one of whom subsequently died.
Some details of the configuration at the date of loss remain unclear. Specifically, that of the gun armament is unknown, and it is unclear whether deck torpedo tubes or depth charge throwers were fitted. It is also unclear whether or not she had been refitted with a 'swan' bow (to reduce pitching on the surface in heavy seas). In common with K15 and K16, K17 was provided with a method of hinging the funnels and closing the watertight doors that differed from that used in earlier members of the class. This used hydraulic (rather than electric) power, having a hydraulic semi-rotary engine which drove a pump connected to motors on the hinge shaft covers.
MS/2523.
The equation of the remains of HMS/M K4 and HMS/M K17, and the locations cited by Wessex Archaeology, are accepted. The remains described in each case appear consistent with the their recorded manner of loss.
Information from RCAHMS (RJCM), 29 November 2005.
MS/2523.
The Ministry of Defence has designated the wrecks of the two K Class submarines in the Firth of Forth as 'Protected Places' under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. The relevant Statutory Instrument is 2616/2006 which comes into force on 1 November 2006.
Information from Mr P Robertson (Historic Scotland), 19 October 2006.
Listed as designated vessel ['Protected Place'] under PMRA 1986: no location specified.
MS/5253.
(Comprehensive account of K-boats, personalities, proceedings and subsequent investigations, making use of newly-released documents).
N S Nash 2009.
Loss (31 January 1918)
Located in 1962 by HMS SCOTT, least depth 46m and standing some 6m proud of the seabed at 51m. K17 was sunk in collision with HMS FEARLESS.
Hydrographic Office 1995.
(Classified as submarine: date of loss cited as 31 January 1918). HMS [HMS/M] K17: this vessel was in collision with HMS Fearless, and [was] sunk.
Registration: London. 1850 tons displacement. Length: 103m. Beam: 8m.
(Location of loss cited as N56 15.35 W2 11.68).
I G Whittaker 1998.
Note (17 December 2002)
Length: 338 ft (103m)
Beam: 26ft 8ins (8.13m)
Displacement: 1883/2565 tons
Propulsion: geared steam turbines; 2 screws; 10500/1400hp; 24-25/9 kts; battery-driven electric motors with (also) 1 x 800 hp diesel for boost when diving or surfacing
Armament: 8 x 18 ins (457mm) torpedo tubes (4 bow; 4 stern); 1 or 2 x 4ins (102mm) and 1 x 3in (76mm) AA guns
Complement: 50/60
The impressive but spectacularly misconceived K class of submarines were essentially an early attempt to build a vessel which was both submersible and also fast on the surface, qualities which were not combined until the advent of nuclear power, if then. Mechanically complex, they were inherently difficult to trim while the need to raise and retract the funnels made surfacing and diving slow in the extreme. The numerous large openings in the hull were always a potential danger. Designated 'fleet submarines' they were intended to cooperate closely with surface warships moving at high speed but their low freeboard and complex silhouette made them difficult to distinguish, particularly at night and in bad weather. Untoward incidents (typically involving uncontrolled sinking) were commonplace and five of the seventeen built either foundered or were sunk in collision, one being raised and returned to service. None remained in service for longer than a decade.
K17 was built under the Emergency War Programme by Vickers at Barrow-in-Furness and completed in 1918. Both K4 (NO80NE 8001) and K17 were sunk in the 'Battle of May Island', a series of interrelated collisions involving both submarines and surface craft on the night of 31 January 1918.
This submarine is apparently the further SW of the close-set pair of wrecks that are charted (Wk) at a depth of 46m in a general depth of 51m about 12.5nm (23.km) ENE of the Isle of May. The surrounding seabed is apparently level and a mixture of sand, gravel and shell.
Information from RCAHMS (RJCM), 17 December 2002.
H M Le Fleming 1961; [Jane] 2001.
HO chart no. 175 (1977, revised 1996).
External Reference (7 November 2003)
Plans (but not photographs) of this vessel are held in the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich.
Information from Ms G Fabri (NMM), 7 November 2003.
Evidence Of Loss (July 2005)
[Undesignated Site Assessment Report compiled from documentary, archive and anecdotal sources only, to consider whether the remains satisfy the criteria for Designation under the Protection of Wrecks Act (1973): no diving or remote sensing was carried out in its preparation. Wessex Archaeology project code 53111 refers]. The identities of the two wrecks charted by UKHO remain unverified, but the available evidence is consistent with UKHO 2975 representing both K4 and K17, UKHO 2973 being the detached bow portion of K17. The survival of a substantial quantity of human remains is considered likely within K4, but improbable in K17.
The location of UKHO 2973 was cited by them as N56 15.345 W2 11.778 [NO 8783 0703] (WGS-84) and cited as having a least depth of 46m in a general depth of 52m, on information from a survey by HMS Scott in 1962. These remains were then identified as probably those of HMS/M K4.
UKHO also cite locational information from Mr PPG Wadsworth (dated 28 June 1994, acquired by detailed echo sounder survey linked to GPS, and apparently in co-ordinate system WGS-84):
Complete submarine (equated K4): N56 15.46 W2 11.51 [NO 8811 0724]
Incomplete submarine (equated K17): N56 15.52 W2 11.51 [NO 8811 0735]
Bow portion (equated K17): N56 15.33 W2 11.78 [NO 8783 0700]
In addition, locations (in co-ordinate system OSGB-36) were provided by Mr M Sinclair at N56 15.453 W2 11.507 and N56 15.510 W2 11.468; both have successfully been used for diving and are in accordance with those cited at the time of loss by HMS Fearless, HMS Ursula and airship N53. The locations cited by RCAHMS are considered incorrect.
Mr Wadsworth (in a report dated 24 June 1994) noted UKHO wreck 2973 as being intact and upright, having a least depth of 48m in a general depth of 56m. The propellers were buried, but no scour was evident. A deep rent crossed the hull aft of the rear gun mounting, while the deckhouse/conning tower was forced over to starboard but still attached to the hull. The forward periscope was damaged, and a fishing net covered the [a] gun and the conning tower.
Diving in 2002-3, Mr M Sinclair and Ms C Peddie (BSAC Cupar) placed two submarines close together, one being to the SW of the other. Both note the wreck as being within about 100m of the complete wreck (in an unstated direction); neither noted the orientation. Mr Sinclair described the incomplete wreck (equated with K17) as lying on a seabed of mud and sand. The bow was missing, while the conning tower lay on the seabed to starboard, and was free of marine growth. A gun lay on the seabed aft of this. No remains of either funnel were evident, but the funnel and hatches lay on the starboard side propped up against the side of the hull. The bow portion was not located by echo sounder or seabed search.
Ms Peddie noted the hull as being upright and largely unburied, the seabed (which was 'hard and gravelly') being at the point where the hull section turns in towards the keel. The bow of this wreck was missing; no torpedoes were noted and there was little debris around the area of the break. The conning tower (of 'brass') lay on the seabed close to the starboard side; a rectangular hole (with no evidence of a hatch) was apparent beneath the conning tower. The control room (beneath) was filled with silt, but a possible binnacle was seen. There was a small gun on the seabed nearby. Two propellers were noted at the stern, which resembled that of K-class boat.
In summary, the remains of this vessel comprise a largely intact hull within a debris field, which is probably of limited extent. The hull measures about 103.33m in length by 6.55m in beam, and is probably silt-filled, with consequent potential for the survival of the artifactual contents (including ordnance).
Wessex Archaeology suggest the equation of UKHO record 2975 with the remains of an intact submarine (by inference, K4) and the greater part of an incomplete submarine (by inference, K17); the detached bow of the latter lies to the SW. They also suggest that UKHO record 2973 be equated with the detached portion of K17. Although the size of this portion is not specifically recorded, a presumed break in the area of the 'officer's mess' [wardroom] would suggest a length of about 24m.
The 'fleet submarine' K17 was built by Vickers at Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, and was commissioned in March 1917. She was lost (as was K4) on the 31 January 1918 during EC1, a night fleet exercise in the Firth of Forth which degenerated into a series of collisions and is remembered as the 'Battle of May Island'. K17 sank following a collision with HMS Fearless, the light cruiser leading the 12th (K) Flotilla. She was struck on the starboard side, a large hole being torn out of her side at the forward end of the wardroom; a delay of eight minutes is recorded being collision and sinking. It appears that all the crew left the sinking vessel, but only nine were rescued, one of whom subsequently died.
Some details of the configuration at the date of loss remain unclear. Specifically, that of the gun armament is unknown, and it is unclear whether deck torpedo tubes or depth charge throwers were fitted. It is also unclear whether or not she had been refitted with a 'swan' bow (to reduce pitching on the surface in heavy seas). In common with K15 and K16, K17 was provided with a method of hinging the funnels and closing the watertight doors that differed from that used in earlier members of the class. This used hydraulic (rather than electric) power, having a hydraulic semi-rotary engine which drove a pump connected to motors on the hinge shaft covers.
MS/2523.
Note (29 November 2005)
The equation of the remains of HMS/M K4 and HMS/M K17, and the locations cited by Wessex Archaeology, are accepted. The remains described in each case appear consistent with the their recorded manner of loss.
Information from RCAHMS (RJCM), 29 November 2005.
MS/2523.
External Reference (19 October 2006)
The Ministry of Defence has designated the wrecks of the two K Class submarines in the Firth of Forth as 'Protected Places' under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. The relevant Statutory Instrument is 2616/2006 which comes into force on 1 November 2006.
Information from Mr P Robertson (Historic Scotland), 19 October 2006.
External Reference (1 April 2008)
Listed as designated vessel ['Protected Place'] under PMRA 1986: no location specified.
MS/5253.
External Reference (2009)
(Comprehensive account of K-boats, personalities, proceedings and subsequent investigations, making use of newly-released documents).
N S Nash 2009.
Reference (2011)
Whittaker ID : 1405
Name : HMS K17
Latitude : 561521
Longitude : 21141
Registration : LONDON
Type : SUBMARINE
Tonnage : 1850
Tonnage Code : D
Length : 103
Beam : 8
Position : Exact Position
Loss Day : 31
Loss Month : 1
Loss Year : 1918
Comment : Collision with HMS FEARLESS and sunk
Reference (19 April 2012)
UKHO Identifier : 002975
Feature Class : Wreck
Wreck Category : Non-dangerous wreck
State : LIVE
Classification : Unclassified
Position (Lat/long) : 56.25755,-2.19322
Horizontal Datum : ETRS 1989
WGS84 Position (Lat/long) : 56.25755,-2.19322
WGS84 Origin : Original
Previous Position : 56.25727,-2.19393
Position Method : Differential Global Positioning System
Position Quality : Surveyed
Position Accuracy : 3.0
Depth : 41.0
Depth Method : Found by multi-beam
Depth Quality : Least depth known
Water Depth : 49
Water Level Effect : Always under water/submerged
Vertical Datum : Lowest Astronomical Tide
Name : HMSM K17
Type : SUBMARINE
Flag : BRITISH
Length : 101.8
Beam : 8.2
Sonar Length : 100.0
Sonar Width : 10.0
Shadow Height : 8.3
Orientation : 130.0
Tonnage : 2650
Tonnage Type : Displacement
Date Sunk : 31/01/1918
Bottom Texture : Sand
Magnetic Anomaly : Strong
Sonar Signal Strength : Strong
Scour Depth : 1.0
Scour Length : 5.0
Scour Orientation : 130.0
